Real Property Rights Committee - Monday, August 9, 2021
Monday, August 9, 2021

Legislative Assembly of Alberta The 30th Legislature

Second Session

Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights

Sigurdson, R.J., Highwood (UC), Chair Rutherford, Brad, Leduc-Beaumont (UC), Deputy Chair Rowswell, Garth, Vermilion-Lloydminster-Wainwright (UC), Acting Deputy Chair

Allard, Tracy L., Grande Prairie (UC)* Amery, Mickey K., Calgary-Cross (UC)** Bilous, Deron, Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview (NDP)*** Ganley, Kathleen T., Calgary-Mountain View (NDP) Glasgo, Michaela L., Brooks-Medicine Hat (UC) Goodridge, Laila, Fort McMurray-Lac La Biche (UC) Hanson, David B., Bonnyville-Cold Lake-St. Paul (UC) Milliken, Nicholas, Calgary-Currie (UC) Neudorf, Nathan T., Lethbridge-East (UC)**** Nielsen, Christian E., Edmonton-Decore (NDP) Orr, Hon. Ronald, Lacombe-Ponoka (UC) Pitt, Angela D., Airdrie-East (UC)***** Reid, Roger W., Livingstone-Macleod (UC) Renaud, Marie F., St. Albert (NDP)****** Sabir, Irfan, Calgary-McCall (NDP)******* Schmidt, Marlin, Edmonton-Gold Bar (NDP) Sweet, Heather, Edmonton-Manning (NDP)

* substitution for Ron Orr ** substitution for Laila Goodridge *** substitution for Kathleen Ganley **** substitution for R.J. Sigurdson ***** substitution for Nicholas Milliken ****** substitution for Heather Sweet ******* substitution for Marlin Schmidt

Support Staff

Shannon Dean, QC Clerk Teri Cherkewich Law Clerk Trafton Koenig Senior Parliamentary Counsel Vani Govindarajan Legal Counsel Philip Massolin Clerk Assistant and Director of House Services Michael Kulicki Clerk of Committees and Research Services Sarah Amato Research Officer Melanie Niemi-Bohun Research Officer Nancy Robert Clerk of Journals and Research Officer Warren Huffman Committee Clerk Jody Rempel Committee Clerk Aaron Roth Committee Clerk Rhonda Sorensen Manager of Corporate Communications Janet Laurie Supervisor of Corporate Communications Jeanette Dotimas Communications Consultant Michael Nguyen Communications Consultant Tracey Sales Communications Consultant Janet Schwegel Director of Parliamentary Programs Amanda LeBlanc Deputy Editor of Alberta Hansard

Transcript produced by Alberta Hansard

August 9, 2021 Real Property Rights RP-51

3 p.m. Monday, August 9, 2021 Title: Monday, August 9, 2021 rp [Mr. Rutherford in the chair]

The Deputy Chair: Good afternoon, everyone. I’d like to call to order the Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights. My name is Brad Rutherford, and I will be chairing this meeting in place of Mr. Sigurdson. I’d like to ask members that are joining the committee at the table to introduce themselves for the record, and I will call on those joining by videoconference afterwards. I will begin to my right.

Mr. Rowswell: Garth Rowswell, Vermilion-Lloydminster- Wainwright.

Mr. Hanson: David Hanson, Bonnyville-Cold Lake-St. Paul.

Mrs. Pitt: Angela Pitt, Airdrie-East.

Mr. Amery: Mickey Amery, Calgary-Cross.

Mr. Nielsen: Good afternoon, everyone. Chris Nielsen, MLA for Edmonton-Decore.

Ms Govindarajan: Vani Govindarajan, office of Parliamentary Counsel.

Dr. Massolin: Good afternoon. Philip Massolin, Clerk Assistant and director of House services.

Mr. Kulicki: Good afternoon. Michael Kulicki, clerk of committees and research services.

Mr. Huffman: Good afternoon. Warren Huffman, committee clerk.

The Deputy Chair: To keep things moving smoothly online, I’ll start with Mrs. Allard.

Mrs. Allard: Good afternoon. Tracy Allard, MLA, Grande Prairie.

The Deputy Chair: Mr. Neudorf.

Mr. Neudorf: Nathan Neudorf, MLA for Lethbridge-East.

The Deputy Chair: Ms Renaud.

Ms Renaud: Yes. Marie Renaud, St. Albert.

The Deputy Chair: Mr. Bilous.

Mr. Bilous: Good afternoon. Deron Bilous, MLA, Edmonton- Beverly-Clareview.

The Deputy Chair: Mr. Sabir.

Mr. Sabir: Irfan Sabir, MLA, Calgary-McCall.

The Deputy Chair: Ms Glasgo.

Ms Glasgo: Michaela Glasgo, MLA, Brooks-Medicine Hat.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. I would just like to go through a few substitutions for today: Nathan Neudorf is substituting for R.J. Sigurdson and, from that, myself as acting chair; Mr. Rowswell is acting deputy chair; Mrs. Allard for Mr. Orr; Mr. Bilous for Ms Ganley; Mrs. Pitt for Mr. Milliken; Ms Renaud for Ms Sweet; Mr. Sabir for Mr. Schmidt; and

Mr. Amery for Ms Goodridge. I hope everybody followed along on those substitutions. A few housekeeping items to go through. Pursuant to the June 30, 2021, memo from the hon. Speaker Cooper I would remind members that the pandemic restrictions on Assembly committees have been lifted. Masks are now optional for those attending committee meetings in person, but members may continue to participate in meetings by videoconference. Please note that the microphones are operated by Hansard staff. Committee proceedings are live streamed on the Internet and broadcast on Alberta Assembly TV. The audio- and videostream and transcripts of meetings can be accessed via the Legislative Assembly website. Those participating by videoconference are asked to please turn on your camera while speaking and mute your microphone when you are not speaking. Members participating virtually who wish to be placed on the speakers list are asked to e-mail or send a message in the group chat to the committee clerk, and members in the room are asked to please signal to the chair. Please set your cellphones and other devices to silent for the duration of the meeting. Moving on to approval of agenda. Are there any changes or additions to the draft agenda? Hearing none, would someone like to make a motion to approve the agenda? Mr. Nielsen has moved that the agenda for the August 9, 2021, meeting of the Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights be adopted as distributed. All those in favour in the room, please say aye. Anybody in the room opposed, please say no. For people online, all those in favour, please say aye. Anyone opposed online, please say no. Hearing none, the agenda has been approved. Approval of minutes. Next we have the draft minutes of the July 8, 2021, meeting. Are there any errors or omissions to note? Hearing none, would somebody like to move a motion to approve the minutes? Mr. Rowswell has moved that the minutes of the July 8, 2021, meeting of the Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights be approved as distributed. All those in the room in favour, please say aye. Anybody in the room opposed, please say no. And online, all those in favour, please say aye. Anyone opposed, please say no. Thank you. That motion has been carried. Moving to business arising from the report on the subcommittee on committee business. Hon. members, the subcommittee on committee business met July 27 to discuss stakeholder submissions and oral presentations. The report on the subcommittee’s recommendations to the committee was made available to members on July 30. The subcommittee’s report made recommendations on which stakeholders the committee would like to invite to provide oral presentations to the committee at a future meeting. The report also recommends a proposed structure for the committee to consider for oral presentations. At this time do members have any comments on the subcommittee’s recommendations relating to the written submissions from stakeholders and stakeholder presentations?

Mr. Rowswell: I could make a motion.

The Deputy Chair: Mr. Rowswell, go ahead, please.

Mr. Rowswell: I’d like to move that the Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights adopt recommendation 3.1 set out in the subcommittee on committee business report of July 27, 2021.

There was a bit of a problem. Some people didn’t get an invitation or it was delayed getting an invitation to make a submission, so at the subcommittee level we wanted to give them extra time or the

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same amount of time in order to give a submission for us to consider. We suggested maybe the 28th would be a good time. It’s kind of a housekeeping issue here, just to get it cleaned up and to deal with that so that people that submitted what appears to be late would actually be on time.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Any further comment on that? Mr. Nielsen.

Mr. Nielsen: Yeah. Thanks, Mr. Chair. That was my understanding as well. We might have some other challenges with a couple of other stakeholders, but I think we might have an ability to discuss that after we get past this one. I’m happy to support it.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Any other discussion? Hearing none, I will call the question. All those in favour of the motion in the room, please say aye. Anyone in the room opposed to the motion? Online, everybody that is in favour of the motion, please say aye. Anyone online that is opposed to the motion, please say no. Thank you.

That motion has been carried. Any other questions or comments?

Mr. Hanson: A further motion to that as well, Mr. Chair, if I might.

The Deputy Chair: Please go ahead.

Mr. Hanson: Member Hanson to move that the Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights accept all late written submissions from invited stakeholders.

That was also discussed at the subcommittee level. The rationale behind it is that if a stakeholder went through the effort to create and provide a written submission, it should at least be considered by the committee, so I would move that we accept all of the late submissions.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you for the motion. Any other discussion? Mr. Nielsen.

Mr. Nielsen: Yeah. Thanks, Mr. Chair. No, this is a good motion, and I think that with folks getting late notice and whatnot, it’s important for the committee to understand what their submissions are. I hope that all members will accept this as well.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you for that. Any other discussion around the motion? Seeing and hearing none, I will call the question. All those in favour of the motion in the room, please say aye. All those opposed in the room, please say no. Moving online, all those in favour of the motion, please say aye. Anyone online opposed to the motion, please say no. Thank you.

That motion has been carried. Any other questions or comments?

Mr. Rowswell: Can I make another motion? That the Special Select Committee on Real Property Rights adopt the recommendations set out in section 3.2 of the subcommittee on committee business report dated July 27, 2021, with the following amendment: that Mark Dorin and the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers be added to the list of stakeholders to be invited by the committee to provide oral presentation.

It’s the submissions we didn’t receive when we made our list, so I think we just want to – like, they’ve put a lot of effort into doing this, and I think it would be a good idea if we could bring those in

and allow them to make an oral presentation given the effort they’ve put in.

The Deputy Chair: Okay. Thank you for that. Any other comments or questions? Mr. Nielsen, go ahead.

Mr. Nielsen: Just clarifying. Were they not already originally on the list?

Mr. Rowswell: Not on the list. The list as I see is: Ted Morton, Lee Cutforth, the RMA, Alberta Law Reform Institute, Action Surface Rights Association, and Graham Gilchrist.

Mr. Nielsen: Oh, okay. I thought they were already on the list, Mr. Chair. Yeah. I don’t see any reason why we should exclude them. Again, it’s important that the committee get as much information as possible with regard to real property rights. This is something that I think is very front and centre for a lot of Albertans, and we shouldn’t exclude any information, quite honestly. I will suggest that other members accept this motion as well.

The Deputy Chair: Okay. Thank you. Any other questions or comments on the motion? Hearing none, I will call the question on that. All those in the room who are in favour of the motion, please say aye. Anyone in the room opposed, please say no. Moving online, everyone online that is in favour of the motion, please say aye. Anyone online that is opposed, please say no. Thank you.

That motion has been carried. Any other discussion around the business arising from the subcommittee? Mr. Nielsen. 3:10

Mr. Nielsen: Thanks, Mr. Chair. I, too, have a motion, number 5, which reads that

the Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights adopt the recommendations set out in section 3.2 of the subcommittee on committee business report dated July 27, 2021, with the following amendment: that the stakeholders identified in section 3.1 who made a submission to the committee by July 28, 2021, be invited to provide oral presentations to the committee.

I’ll wait to just speak a little bit further to that.

The Deputy Chair: Just so you know, where Mr. Huffman was just explaining, the motions are quite similar, so it’s potentially out of order. Do you have any other comments on that, Mr. Huffman? Okay. So because they are so similar, Mr. Nielsen, it will be a motion that is out of order because of Mr. Rowswell’s motion that was just carried, just so you’re aware.

Mr. Nielsen: Point of clarification, then.

The Deputy Chair: Yes.

Mr. Nielsen: With regard to Mr. Rowswell’s motion, because there’s a date on this, does this create any conflicts that we might need to possibly address in terms of dates because Mr. Hanson had a motion around accepting the submissions up to August 8? I’m wondering if that motion possibly ends up striking out those late submissions, and then we wouldn’t be able to hear from them. Maybe if I can rely on Parliamentary Counsel or the clerk.

The Deputy Chair: I’m looking at the date from the previous motion listing July 27, the report dated July 27, and then providing an amendment to it, but I will turn it to anybody else who wants to make a comment on it.

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Mr. Rowswell: I think it’s the 28th, as long as submissions were accepted by the 28th. The one, I think, is just the future motion that we’re accepting submissions in October sometime.

Mr. Nielsen: Yeah. There were some submissions that were received after that. I’m worried they might be excluded.

Mr. Rowswell: Those are written submissions. Yeah. Like, I think those – I don’t want to presume something. It looks like it’s covered the middle of October.

Mr. Hanson: Yeah. It was covering all written submissions that came in late up to that August 8 date.

Mr. Nielsen: Okay. So nothing will be excluded, then, from anybody getting an invite that, like I said, filed their submissions after the 28th? I just want to make sure that they get captured here as well if we need to fix something.

Mrs. Pitt: We should clarify written and oral.

Mr. Rowswell: Yeah. I think oral had to be before the 28th. Those two, like, Mark Dorin and CAPP, were before the 28th.

Mr. Nielsen: Right. So then they wouldn’t get . . .

Mr. Rowswell: They would get oral. Yeah.

Mr. Nielsen: They would get an invite to an oral?

Mr. Rowswell: Yes.

Mr. Nielsen: Okay.

Mr. Rowswell: Yeah.

Mr. Nielsen: I understand it may be the Farmers’ Advocate that might – again, just looking for clarification to make sure that everybody is covered.

Mr. Rowswell: Yeah.

Mr. Nielsen: If they come, they come, and if they don’t, they don’t. I mean, that’s irrelevant.

Mr. Hanson: If I might jump in, I think my motion was pretty clear that it was that

the Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights accept all late written submissions from invited stakeholders.

Mr. Nielsen: Okay.

Mr. Hanson: So as long as they were invited, they provided written . . .

Mr. Nielsen: They’ll get an oral invitation. Okay. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Any other discussion around stakeholder submissions and presentations before we move on? Okay. We’ll move on to decisions on public meetings. Members, the committee is at a point where it should make decisions on locations where it would like to hold public meetings. Cost estimates have been provided to the committee regarding travel costs, advertising, and broadcasting with both audio and video options. As well, LAO staff are on hand to answer questions and provide further clarification on these options.

I’ll open the floor to members if they have any comments on organizing the public meetings. Mr. Nielsen.

Mr. Nielsen: Well, thanks, Mr. Chair. I believe the clerk has motion number 6 from me, so I’ll just jump right in so we can get into the conversation. I’ll move that

the Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights hold public meetings at the following locations on dates to be determined by the chair after consulting with committee members: Edmonton, Red Deer, Calgary, Lethbridge, Canmore, Medicine Hat, Grande Prairie, and St. Paul.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. We’ve got the motion up on the screen. Any other comments, Mr. Nielsen?

Mr. Nielsen: Yes. You know, I think that, at the very least, this is a good starting point, trying to cover as much of the province as possible. I know we’ve certainly heard from a lot of people from around the province and their concerns around real property rights, things that affect them. I think that trying to spread out the best we can will allow those individuals to try to tap in and provide their comments to the committee so that we can all make an informed decision. My hope is that committee members will be willing to accept this motion.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Any other comments or questions? Mr. Hanson.

Mr. Hanson: I hesitate to amend the motion, but I just want to change a little bit of it and provide a little bit more detail if that’s all right, Mr. Chair.

MLA Hanson to move that the motion be amended by striking out all the words after “Edmonton” and substituting the following: “Edson, St. Paul, Sundre, Hanna, Fort MacLeod, and Medicine Hat,” and that

(a) all the meetings will allow for the attendance of all committee members,

(b) the meeting held in Edmonton will be open to the public to attend virtually only,

(c) the meetings in all other locations will: (i) be open to the public to attend in person, or (ii) be broadcast by audiostream only and also be

held in the following format: (A) a five- to 10-minute presentation by the

chair at the start of the meeting to clarify the mandate of the committee, and

(B) comments by members of the public relevant to the mandate of the committee for a period of up to two hours and moderated by the chair.

A little bit of rationale behind that, if I might, is that these locations are a lot more accessible to those in rural areas, who often have the most to say on property rights issues, so we’d like to spend as much time giving them opportunities as we can.

The Deputy Chair: Okay. Thank you. Any other comments? Mr. Nielsen, go ahead.

Mr. Nielsen: Thanks, Mr. Chair. I have a few comments around the motion here. I guess, first, to start off with, when we’re talking about individuals that, you know, will have access to the committee, be able to present their concerns, I can think about my own riding of Edmonton-Decore, where I have a couple of constituents right off the top of my head that do reside in Edmonton-Decore, but they do have property, coincidentally, out in Mr. Hanson’s area as well. For them to necessarily drive all the way out to St. Paul to participate in that when they could come to Edmonton – in this case,

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we do have Edmonton on the list, so, for them, that will work out, but I doubt that that is a unique circumstance to Edmonton-Decore. There are probably folks that live in Red Deer, that live in Calgary, that live in Lethbridge that also have similar situations, and now we’re asking those folks to go all the way out to be able to participate in those public meetings. To exclude some of those bigger centres I think is excluding Albertans from being able to convey their points of view to the committee, which is not what we should be doing. You know, I guess that if we’d have maybe added some of those other areas to the list, certainly that’s something that I think we could have worked with. 3:20

You know, I’m sort of wondering why we’re going to, say, for instance, exclude residents out in the Canmore area. I know that there has been some significant interest in this topic, and I don’t think that we can just simply go by, sure, some of the things that have been conveyed to us as our version of already consulting with them. I think that that does a disservice to them. The other thing that I find I have some concerns around: allowing for attendance at all the committee meetings. I know that discussions in the subcommittee have talked about going with a smaller contingent from the committee being able to attend these things. We’ve seen other public meetings that have consulted with a smaller contingent effectively, so I’m kind of wondering why all of a sudden we now want every single member to be attending. I don’t necessarily have any issues with, you know, the meeting in Edmonton being held virtually. I suppose that there are always folks who might want to be able to attend in person, but we can certainly, probably, work around that. Now, the other part that I do have some concerns with here would be in sub (B), “comments by members of the public relevant to the mandate of the committee for a period of up to two hours and moderated by the chair.” Again, as an individual that gets hung up a little bit on the language, the committee and the subcommittee have made decisions around eliminating some subjects with regard to what we should be looking at as a committee. You know, things like surface rights really do actually affect the property rights of individual Albertans, and I’m concerned that this part could be used as a way to possibly cut off people from talking about these kinds of things. I’m certainly not pointing any fingers or anything like that. I just always worry about, you know, how something could be interpreted, and I don’t think that we want to be cutting off the public. Now, that said, I certainly don’t want anybody going off on a tangent and possibly talking about daylight savings time, which is clearly not part of the mandate of the committee. Certainly, I think that the chair already has the ability to be able to moderate that kind of thing and keep people on track in terms of the subject. But I’m concerned that that could be a significant problem. I guess, to sum it up, you know, I feel a little bit like I’m in a position where it’s like I’m looking at some legislation in the House that’s omnibus in nature and where we have some aspects of that that are good, but then we also have some other aspects of it that are maybe not so good, and it’s trying to weigh out: are you willing to sort of, I guess, let go in terms of trying to get the good? I’m concerned that we’re eliminating people that live in large centres a little bit too much. I think we certainly could have come up with a way to look at that list a little bit more closely, but because the committee happens to be tied in terms of how we present motions, we’re unable to be able to work those kinds of things in. I’m, unfortunately, in a position where I feel that the negative stuff outweighs what is good here in terms of, you know, how the meeting should look, how people need to conduct themselves

versus where we’re going, people possibly getting cut off in terms of what they’re talking about. I mean, an individual could be very, very concerned about the location of a coal mine and how it affects the water sources if you’re an agricultural producer. That ultimately does affect their property rights, but technically you could cut that discussion off there based on some of this language, so I’m reluctantly unwilling to support the subamendment. I think it does sort of significantly change what the original intent of the motion is to begin with, and I would suggest that maybe other members of the committee not accept the subamendment as presented right now.

The Deputy Chair: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Neudorf, you’re next on the list.

Mr. Neudorf: Thank you, Chair. I’m just trying to take all those things down. I very much appreciate MLA Nielsen and his comments. He is, as always, very thoughtful and concerned with particular wording, and I do appreciate his efforts in this matter. Being from Lethbridge and on this particular topic, I appreciate his advocacy for Lethbridge to be included as a site, but as I’ve spoken to my constituents here in Lethbridge, this issue does seem to be much more focused on rural. I appreciate the amendment brought forward by MLA Hanson to address that by adding Fort Macleod, which is not an onerous drive from Lethbridge. It’s 20 to 30 minutes, depending on where you live. As it does affect those constituents far more immediately than those in Lethbridge, I think that is an adjustment I’d be willing to make. I also would like to point out that the meeting in Edmonton was retained for that large centre and also opened up by virtual means for everyone in Alberta. Now, I do recognize that we have a large population that’s challenging to manage, but I do trust the committee in its format that if they have an overwhelming response from that, they would address it at that point in time. I do believe that they have a fairly well-balanced city and town representation as well as that meeting in Edmonton to make it as accessible as possible while still managing just realities of travel for those who may be on the committee and may choose to attend those meetings and the cost of adding each additional city being what it is. It is my understanding that it could be somewhere between $10,000 and $20,000 per city to make that happen. So with that fiscal reality in our awareness, I think the number and distribution of cities as proposed in the amendment would be appropriate at this time, and I would urge the committee to accept it as amended to accommodate all of those different thoughts. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Any other comments or questions?

Mr. Hanson: Yeah. If I might jump in, Mr. Chair.

The Deputy Chair: Mr. Hanson.

Mr. Hanson: Yeah. Some of the rationale: it’s more about providing access to all Albertans. Because of the spotty – even cell coverage. I was on the phone here on the way in today and dropped a call three times. Just cell coverage alone is sometimes very spotty, let alone broadband, so that’s why I wanted to reach out to more of the rural communities all over the province: northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest, and central. So that was the rationale behind that. We’re already set up here in Edmonton. We’ve got access to the Federal Building here for virtual meetings, accessibility that way. Anybody in Edmonton, Calgary can quite easily dial into those. It would give them an opportunity.

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We don’t want to eliminate the opportunity for any Albertans, actually, in this – it’s very important – but as I said, it’s more about the accessibility and lack of communication data and broadband out in rural Alberta. We want to give those folks the best opportunity. Like Mr. Neudorf said about picking Fort Macleod, it’s only a 20- minute drive from Lethbridge, so it doesn’t eliminate people from Lethbridge that are very concerned about it that might want to drive there, but it also opens it up for all the landowners down in that area to submit that. Again, you know, the concern about the members of the public talking about stuff that’s relevant to the mandate of the committee. I’ve been to a number of not really forums or meetings but just getting out into the public, and I’ll tell you what: the focus out there is still about COVID. I’d hate to see one of these meetings get sidelined by things that are relevant to Albertans but not relevant to the mandate of the committee. That was kind of the rationale behind my amendment. 3:30

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Mrs. Pitt.

Mrs. Pitt: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just prior to the continuation of this conversation, if I could offer a small subamendment to this amendment. Would that be appropriate at this time?

The Deputy Chair: Yeah. Please go ahead.

Mrs. Pitt: Okay. Just in consultation with the MLA out in the area, I move

to strike out “Sundre” and replace it with “Eckville.” It seems to be a more centralized meeting area for the people in there as opposed to Sundre. So just that one small change.

The Deputy Chair: Just for the committee, I just double-checked with Mr. Huffman that it’s not a substantive change. A subamendment can be made from the floor. Any other discussion around the subamendment? Mr. Nielsen, I see you looking to the screen. Do you need a moment to see it?

Mr. Nielsen: Yeah. I’m just waiting to see what the change was again. Sorry.

Mrs. Pitt: To strike out “Sundre” and replace it with “Eckville.”

Mr. Nielsen: It took me a second to drive.

Mrs. Pitt: I know. This whole conversation has been that way.

Mr. Hanson: It’s all about highways, right? You know, you can say that this is here and this is here, but it’s, like: I just want to get there.

The Deputy Chair: We have the subamendment up on the screen. Any other comments or questions to it? Okay. Hearing none, I will call the question on the subamendment. All those in favour of the subamendment in the room, please say aye. Anyone opposed in the room, please say no. Thank you. Online, all those in favour of the subamendment, please say aye. All those opposed online, please say no. Thank you.

The motion for the subamendment has carried. We are now on to the amended amendment. I will again ask if there are any comments or questions that would like to be brought up. Okay. Hearing none, I will call the question on the amendment as amended. All those in favour in the room, please say aye. All

those opposed in the room, please say no. Thank you. All those in favour online, please say aye. All those opposed online, please say no. Thank you.

That motion has carried. We are now on to the amended main motion. Any other comments or questions to the main motion as amended? Mr. Nielsen.

Mr. Nielsen: Well, thanks, Mr. Chair. I’m certainly going to cross my fingers that, you know, folks that possibly live in the larger centres that do have property out in a rural area are able to make it out to these meetings to have their voices heard, but I guess time will only answer that one. My hope is that this does work out, but I’m just not, I guess, totally happy that we didn’t get a chance to maybe work this out a little bit better, obviously, through our lack of roles on the committee preventing us and possibly a little interaction, I guess, through the subcommittee on the topic. But it is what it is.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you, Mr. Nielsen. Any other questions or comments around the amended main motion? Hearing none, I will call the question. All those in favour of the amended main motion, please say aye. All those opposed in the room to that same motion, please say no. Thank you. Moving online, all those in favour of the motion, please say aye. All those opposed, please say no. Thank you.

That motion has been carried. Moving on, any other discussion within decisions on public meetings? I’m not hearing any. I do have a draft motion that was prepared to direct the LAO. The committee should now look to directing the LAO to prepare a draft communications plan for public meetings. I would note that this sort of motion is just providing direction to LAO staff. It is not required to be submitted in advance under Standing Order 52.04(1). Mr. Huffman, do you have a version you can put up?

Mr. Huffman: Yeah.

The Deputy Chair: I will just read through it, that the Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights direct LAO communications services to prepare a draft communications plan in support of the committee’s public meetings, including no-cost, low-cost, and paid communication initiatives, and that the chair be authorized to approve the communications plan after it has been made available to the committee for review.

I will need somebody to move that motion, and then we can have a discussion around it.

Mr. Hanson: I’d be happy to move that motion, Mr. Chair.

The Deputy Chair: Sounds good. Mr. Hanson will move that motion. For those online, it should be up on the screen so that you can review it as well. Any discussion around this motion?

Mr. Hanson: I would just like – as long as the LAO is clear on the need for, specifically, province-wide radio on specific channels that really reach out to the entire province. I think it’s very important that, you know, the truck driver and the guys out, unfortunately, some of them, plowing under their fields this year get good access to – and some predates so that they can plan their schedule accordingly. It’s a tough year out there, and I think that people would be very, very interested in attending. Let’s make sure that

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everybody knows about it and that they won’t hear about it second- hand but hear about it on their favourite radio station or in their local newspaper.

The Deputy Chair: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Hanson. Mr. Nielsen.

Mr. Nielsen: I guess just a quick question. When we’re getting sort of the communications plan and, you know, the cost and things like that, is it going to be just based on the motions we’ve passed for the entire committee, or will it be for the entire committee and maybe part of the committee?

The Deputy Chair: Mr. Huffman, do you want to take a shot at that?

Mr. Huffman: Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Nielsen. I’m sure that LAO communications could make estimates for both the whole committee and a partial committee, whatever the committee would like.

Mr. Nielsen: Is that a motion that I have to make, is it included, or would that just be understood?

Mr. Huffman: No. I think that that can be understood. I don’t think we need to pass a motion for that.

Mr. Rowswell: Just so I understand, you’re wondering if people are – like, the full committee is welcome to every meeting, right?

Mr. Nielsen: Yeah. I mean, anybody can show up, but if we’re only going to send a smaller contingent, that’s what the expenses would cover: you know, hotel room, travel costs.

Mr. Rowswell: Yeah. I think that this budget is based on a full contingent, as I understand it.

Mr. Nielsen: Okay.

Mr. Rowswell: Yeah.

Mr. Hanson: Just for clarification, I think that we’re talking about advertising and communications, not about paid expenses here. This is just about putting out to the public where the meetings are going to be, what times, all that kind of stuff. If I’m correct, this is just clearly about advertising.

The Deputy Chair: Yes. That’s how I read the motion as well. But if you’re looking, Mr. Nielsen, for any more clarity, feel free to ask any of the . . .

Mr. Nielsen: Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Then I misunderstood. My apologies.

The Deputy Chair: Okay. And then to Mr. Hanson: your point is, I’m assuming, well taken for direction. Are there any other comments or questions? Sorry. Mr. Nielsen, go ahead.

Mr. Nielsen: I guess one other question around accessible communications, ASL and things like that. Is that included, I guess, for everything? If we do have folks that, you know, need help with – whether there’s a radio ad or a TV ad or something, how that will affect them or actually at the meetings themselves if we need an interpreter or something like that for people, for instance, that are deaf.

The Deputy Chair: Okay. I’ll just turn it over to Mr. Huffman or whoever. What’s the precedent for that, or what has happened in the past? Yes.

Mr. Kulicki: If I may, Mr. Chair, in the past, you know, I guess, just for a bit of background – of course, we’ve just had a pilot project with ASL communication within the Public Accounts Committee. In the past ASL communication hasn’t been something that we’ve done on the road, but certainly we could, I think, build in some cost information for that. [interjection] Oh, true. Sorry. My colleague Dr. Massolin also mentioned that in terms of the remote locations, since we won’t have video on the road, we actually won’t be able to do ASL. That is the issue there. 3:40 Mrs. Pitt: Can you, maybe, as required?

The Deputy Chair: Sorry, Mrs. Pitt. Go ahead.

Mrs. Pitt: Sorry. My apologies, Mr. Chair. As required: would that be an appropriate add-on for a motion such as this? Like, accessible services as required, when requested?

The Deputy Chair: Sorry. I’m just going to jump in here. For the motion that we’ve got up, we’re talking about communication about the in-person meetings. I just want to make sure we handle this first, and then we can have a further discussion, Mr. Nielsen, about your concerns. With this motion are there any other comments or questions or alterations or anything before I call the question on it? Okay. Ms Glasgo, do you want to go ahead on this?

Ms Glasgo: No, Mr. Chair. That was exactly what I was going to ask.

The Deputy Chair: Okay. Hearing no other questions or comments, I will call the question on the motion moved by Mr. Hanson. All those in favour in the room, please say aye. Anyone opposed in the room, please say no. All those in favour online, please say aye. Anyone opposed online, please say no. Hearing none,

that motion has been carried. Since we’re still within decisions on public meetings, Mr. Nielsen, do you want to continue that topic or line of questions?

Mr. Nielsen: Yeah. Sure, Mr. Chair. Sorry. You know, when we’re talking about communications, we don’t necessarily know exactly where that falls under: for Albertans that do have different disabilities, whether that be if they’re blind, if they’re deaf, how those individuals can also participate in these public meetings and what kind of costing that might take in order to provide those services. I don’t know if it’s a case of whether we can make a way for them to reach out and connect with us so that we know, maybe ahead of time, that those kind of services – because, I think, as Mrs. Pitt was saying, if it turns out we don’t need those services in a particular meeting because nobody has identified that, then we can look at that, but if there is identification, I think it’s incumbent upon us to be able to include those people.

The Deputy Chair: Ms Glasgo, go ahead.

Ms Glasgo: Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, I don’t think anybody would like to see anyone excluded and accessibility be a hinderance to being able to participate. My question is maybe to communications as well as to the committee clerk. As we know, meeting minutes are taken vigorously throughout these meetings,

August 9, 2021 Real Property Rights RP-57

and I’m wondering if we could make those transcripts available immediately for those who are hearing impaired. I know that doesn’t necessarily help those who are visually impaired, but I’d be willing to hear any other ideas on that. I’m not an expert, but I’m just thinking there might be an opportunity for us if somebody were to request those meeting minutes. We have extended the deadline for submissions, so I’m wondering if those transcripts would be useful for those who maybe are not able to listen in to a televised video- or audiostream, if that’s something that we could accommodate easily since we’re already taking meeting minutes. Mr. Chair, if the clerk could clarify that, that would be great.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. I will turn it over to the clerk.

Mr. Huffman: Hi. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. The videostream of the video is available right away. The transcripts of committee meetings, depending on how busy Hansard is, can take a day or two before they would be available, but they get put out and are available online as soon as possible. It would just depend on how busy Hansard is for those transcripts to be available.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Mr. Hanson, did you have a comment around this?

Mr. Hanson: Yeah. I guess I was just going to bring up that the transcripts of the meetings out in the rural areas and the ones here in Edmonton, the virtual ones, would be available. One thing that we could stress when we’re looking for the locations of the meetings in the rural communities that we’ve approved is accessibility, you know, making sure that it’s not on the second floor of a building that only has stairs, that kind of thing. That’s pretty easy for us to do, so I think we could accommodate that way. I’d just like to mention that, you know, in some meetings that we’ve had – I remember one on rural crime. There was nothing provided at those, but people that had those disabilities had their interpreter with them and helped them along as well. Sometimes it can be a language barrier as well. It’s tough, especially in the small rurals, to accommodate that, but I think a lot of the folks that might attend would have their own people with them to help them translate at that. Like I said, as far as accessibility, that’s something that we should definitely make sure is taken care of.

The Deputy Chair: Okay. Any other questions or comments or direction to the LAO around that topic?

Dr. Massolin: Can I just . . .

The Deputy Chair: Yeah. Please go ahead, sir.

Dr. Massolin: Mr. Chair, if I may, just to get clarification, I think what I’m hearing is that we need costing information with respect to something like ASL interpretation, and we can come back with that if that’s what’s desired. Like, in addition to what you – through you, Mr. Chair, to Mr. Hanson, accessibility in terms of physical accessibility of these venues, but I think you’re also asking for the possibility of having ASL and the costing information that’s associated with that. If so, I think we just need some direction to provide that.

The Deputy Chair: Would anybody like to bring forward a motion? Do you need a motion, or do you feel like you’ve got a direction?

Dr. Massolin: If there’s consensus here, there’s no need for a motion. We can simply provide that in writing.

The Deputy Chair: Okay. I think there’s consensus, then, to request a budget and to go over what the options are in rural Alberta in these communities. I think Mr. Nielsen talked about if somebody needed the service, but we’re not going to know. That person is going to have to – the interpreter will have to be at each meeting as well, so that will be good to know. Any other discussion within decisions on public meetings? Okay. Moving on to other business, is there anything else for us to discuss today?

Mr. Hanson: I want to get my name on record, Mr. Chair, here today. It was a long drive, you know? But, yes, I do have a motion, if I might, Mr. Chair.

The Deputy Chair: Please go ahead.

Mr. Hanson: MLA Hanson to move that the Select Special Committee on Real Property Rights extend the deadline for public written submissions to October 15, 2021, just to give Albertans more time to have their voices heard.

Actually, one of the calls that got dropped on the way in here was a fellow from down in southern Alberta that thought he had missed the opportunity, but it’s nice to know that there’s still access for the public to do some written submissions as well as opposed to just those that were invited to that. So we’ll look forward to having that, and I’m sure that there are more people out there that would like to get their thoughts written down. A lot of people, you know, will come to a public meeting and never get in front of the microphone, but this gives them an opportunity to put their thoughts on paper and get them to us.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Any questions or comments around that motion? Mr. Nielsen.

Mr. Nielsen: It’s never a bad thing to provide as many opportunities for Albertans to be able to engage with their government, and, you know, this is just one extra way, so I’m happy to support.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Any other questions or comments? Hearing and seeing none, I will call the question. All those in the room in favour of the motion moved by Mr. Hanson, please say aye. Anyone opposed in the room, please say no. Anyone online that is in favour of the motion, please say aye. Anyone opposed online, please say no. Thank you.

That motion has been carried. Any other business to discuss? Hearing none, the next meeting will be at the call of the chair, and I will need someone to move a motion to adjourn. Something is – give me one moment. Sorry. I’m just going to update the committee quickly here. I’d like to take this opportunity to update that the committee passed a motion at the previous meeting which directed LAO staff to contact First Nations of treaties 6, 7, and 8 as well as the Métis settlements to inquire about their interest in possibly hosting a meeting with the committee. Letters were sent out late July, and the responses were requested to be received by August 16. So far there have been three respondents who have expressed an interest in meeting with the committee. It is anticipated that before the committee’s next meeting, additional information about this matter will be provided along with a list of those who have expressed an interest in meeting

RP-58 Real Property Rights August 9, 2021

with the committee. At this time no decisions need to be made, but I’ll open up the floor to any questions or comments that you may have surrounding that. Mr. Hanson.

Mr. Hanson: Is there any update or any other detail on who has responded?

The Deputy Chair: Go ahead. 3:50

Mr. Huffman: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The three respondents that showed interest in hosting a meeting for the committee were the Fort McKay First Nation, the Ermineskin Cree Nation, and the Aseniwuche Winewak Nation in Grande Cache .

The Deputy Chair: Any other questions or comments at this time? Okay. Hearing none, thank you for letting me just update there as I was going a little bit too quickly through the agenda. Of course, the next meeting will be at the call of the chair, as I stated. I will need a motion to adjourn. Mr. Rowswell has moved that the meeting be adjourned. All those in favour in the room, please say aye. Anyone opposed in the room? Online, all those in favour of the meeting being adjourned, please say aye. Anyone opposed online, please say no. Thank you. The meeting has been adjourned.

[The committee adjourned at 3:51 p.m.]

Published under the Authority of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta