CIMM
Citizenship and Immigration - Tuesday, December 14, 2021 -
Election of Chair
Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration
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EVIDENCE
Tuesday, December 14, 2021
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
[English]
Good afternoon, honourable members.
[Translation]
I see a quorum.
I must inform members that the clerk of the committee can only receive motions for the election of the chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions, cannot entertain points of order, nor participate in debate.
We can now proceed to the election of the chair. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the chair must be a member of the government party.
[English]
I am ready to receive motions for the chair.
Mr. Dhaliwal.
It has been moved by Mr. Dhaliwal that Mrs. Zahid be elected chair of the committee.
Are there any further motions?
Seeing none, it has been moved by Mr. Dhaliwal that Mrs. Zahid be elected chair of the committee. I declare the motion carried, and Mrs. Zahid duly elected chair of the committee.
(Motion agreed to)
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Clerk: I invite Mrs. Zahid to take the chair.
Good morning, everyone. Thanks to all of the members for putting your trust in me. I look forward to working with you all to make sure that we can raise the issues and concerns we have from our constituents. Thank you for your trust.
If the committee is in agreement, I will invite the clerk to proceed to the election of the vice-chairs.
Thank you.
Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the first vice-chair must be a member of the official opposition.
I am now prepared to receive motions for the first vice-chair.
Mr. El-Khoury.
[Translation]
[English]
Thank you, and congratulations, Madam Chair.
I move that Mr. Kyle Seeback be elected first vice-chair from the Conservative Party.
It has been moved by Mr. Hallan that Mr. Kyle Seeback be elected as first vice-chair of the committee.
Are there any further motions?
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?
(Motion agreed to)
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Clerk: I declare the motion carried, and Mr. Seeback duly elected first vice-chair of the committee.
[Translation]
Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the second vice-chair must be a member of an opposition party other than the official opposition.
[English]
I am now prepared to receive motions for the second vice-chair.
Mr. El-Khoury.
[Translation]
It has been moved by Mr. El-Khoury that Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe be elected as second vice-chair of the committee.
Are there any further motions?
[English]
Seeing none, is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?
(Motion agreed to)
The Clerk: I declare Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe duly elected second vice-chair of the committee.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
Thank you, Madam Clerk.
Welcome to meeting number one of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. Regarding the speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether participating virtually or in person.
I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.
Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from public health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, to remain healthy and safe, the following are the recommendations for all those attending the meeting in person. Anyone with symptoms should participate by Zoom, and not attend the meeting in person. Everyone must maintain two-metre physical distancing, whether seated or standing. Everyone must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is recommended in the strongest possible terms that members wear their masks at all times, including when seated. Non-medical masks, which provide better clarity over cloth masks, are available in the room. Everyone present must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer at the room entrance. Committee rooms are cleaned before and after each meeting. To maintain this, everyone is encouraged to clean surfaces such as desks, chairs and microphones with the provided disinfectant wipes when vacating or taking a seat.
As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank all the members in advance for their co-operation.
I would like suggest that as the next order of business, the committee now proceed to considering our routine motions. In preparation for this, the committee clerk has circulated a list of routine motions that the committee adopted in the last parliamentary session. The committee clerk can answer any questions about the routine motions any member may have.
If the committee wishes to adopt routine motions, we can proceed to that.
Go ahead, Mr. El-Khoury.
Good morning to all.
The motion reads as follows:
[Translation]
Routine motions
Notice of motions
That a 48-hour notice, interpreted as two nights, be required for any substantive motion to be moved in committee, unless the substantive motion relates directly to business then under consideration, provided that: (a) the notice be filed with the clerk of the committee no later than 4:00 p.m. from Monday to Friday; (b) the motion be distributed to members and the offices of the whips of each recognized party in both official languages by the clerk on the same day the said notice was transmitted, if it was received no later than the deadline hour; (c) notices received after the deadline hour or on non-business days be deemed to have been received during the next business day; and that when the committee is holding meetings outside the parliamentary precinct, no substantive motion may be moved.
[English]
Thank you.
We will go one by one. After every motion, we will have a vote and then proceed to the next one.
The first is on notice of motions.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: You can proceed to the next one.
The next one reads:
That, in relation to orders of reference from the House respecting Bills,
(a) The clerk of the committee shall, upon the committee receiving such an order of reference, write to each Member who is not a member of a caucus represented on the committee to invite those members to file with the clerk of the committee, in both official languages, any amendments to the bill which is subject of the said order which they would suggest that the committee consider;
(b) Suggested amendments filed, pursuant to paragraph (a), at least 48 hours prior of the start of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill to which the amendments relate shall be deemed to be proposed during the said consideration, provided that the committee may, by motion, vary this deadline in respect of a given bill; and
(c) During the clause-by-clause consideration of a bill, the Chair shall allow a Member who filed suggested amendments, pursuant to paragraph (a), an opportunity to make brief representations in support of them.
The Chair: All those in favour?
(Motion agreed to)
[Translation]
The next motion concerns technical tests for witnesses:
That the clerk inform each witness who is to appear before the committee that the House administration support team must conduct technical tests to check the connectivity and the equipment used to ensure the best possible sound quality; and that the chair advise the committee, at the start of each meeting, of any witness who did not perform the required technical tests.
[English]
On linguistic review:
That all documents submitted for committee business that do not come from a federal department or that have not been translated by the Translation Bureau be sent for prior linguistic review by the Translation Bureau before being distributed to members.
The last one?
The Chair: Yes.
Mr. Fayçal El-Khoury: It reads:
Linguistic Review
That all documents submitted for committee business that do not come from a federal department or that have not been translated by the Translation Bureau be sent for prior linguistic review by the Translation Bureau before being distributed to members.
(Motion agreed to)
[Translation]
The next motion is about analyst services:
That the committee retain, as needed and at the discretion of the chair, the services of one or more analysts from the Library of Parliament to assist it in its work.
[English]
Thank you.
All those in favour of this motion?
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Before you proceed to pass the next motion for the analysts services, we would request the analysts to please [Technical Difficulty--Editor].
Those who are on the camera—
[Translation]
On a point of order, Madam Chair.
I'm told that there is a problem affecting interpretation. I think there is a problem with your microphone, which means that the interpreters, unfortunately, cannot do their work properly.
[English]
I will have a look at that.
Can everyone hear me now? There is a problem with the microphones. We will suspend for five minutes for the interpreters to look into it.
The Chair: I call the meeting back to order. Can I have the attention of all members? Is everyone able to hear properly? Is the interpretation working for everyone?
Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, are you okay?
We have passed the motion on the services of the analysts, and I would welcome our three analysts to their chairs, or, if they are on Zoom, they can turn their cameras on. We will have the services of Julie Béchard, Madalina Chesoi and Martin McCallum.
Thank you for all the work you do for this committee, and welcome to CIMM.
We can proceed to the next motion.
On the subcommittee on agenda and procedure:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be established and be composed of five (5) members; the Chair, one member from each recognized party; and that the subcommittee work in a spirit of collaboration.
[Translation]
The next motion concerns meetings without a quorum:
That the chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence and to have that evidence published when a quorum is not present, provided that at least four members are present, including two members of the opposition parties and two members of the government party, but when travelling outside the parliamentary precinct, that the meeting begin after 15 minutes, regardless of members present.
[English]
On time for opening remarks and questioning of witnesses:
That witnesses be given five minutes for their opening statement; that whenever possible, witnesses provide the committee with their opening statement 72 hours in advance; that at the discretion of the Chair, during the questioning of witnesses, there be allocated six minutes for the first questioner of each party as follows for the first round: Conservative Party, Liberal Party, Bloc Québécois, New Democratic Party
For the second and subsequent rounds, the order and time for the questioning be as follows: Conservative Party, five minutes; Liberal Party, five minutes; Bloc Québécois, two and a half minutes; New Democratic Party, two and a half minutes; Conservative Party, five minutes; Liberal Party, five minutes
Madam Chair, before we vote on this motion, I would just like to propose the following for members' consideration. While I don't propose that this becomes an official component of our routine, in the past what we have done at this committee and other committees is that when we got to the repeat of the second round—the Bloc and the NDP—I wonder if committee members would allow, at the discretion of the chair, for us at the bottom to have an additional round so that we will get another two and a half minutes in the bottom round, as we have done previously at this committee.
I believe the chair has the authority and the discretion to allocate the time they may consider needed for the meeting.
Thank you, Ms. Kwan. I think in the past on this committee, we have worked collaboratively on this. These are the routine motions. At times we have had to reduce the amount of time spent because of votes in the House, or something else, when there is some interruption and we have the witnesses. In the past, what we have done is that after listening to the witnesses, every party has had five minutes. It depends on the time we have. I will work collaboratively with everyone to make sure that we work together, and, based on the time we have, we can figure out the second round.
All those in favour of the motion proposed by Mr. El-Khoury?
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: We'll go to the next ones. We have motions on document distribution; meals; travel and accommodation; and access to in camera meetings.
There is some ambiguity in this.
[Translation]
The next motion concerns document distribution.
That only the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute documents to members of the committee provided the documents are in both official languages, and that the witnesses be advised accordingly.
[English]
On working meals:
That the clerk of the committee, at the discretion of the Chair, be authorized to make the necessary arrangements to provide working meals for the committee and its subcommittees.
[Translation]
The next motion is about travel, accommodation and the living expenses of witnesses.
That, if requested, reasonable travel, accommodation and living expenses be reimbursed to witnesses, not exceeding two representatives per organization; and that in exceptional circumstances, payment for more representatives be made at the discretion of the chair.
[English]
On access to in camera meetings:
That, unless otherwise ordered, each committee member be allowed to be accompanied by one staff member at an in camera meeting and that one additional person from each House officer's office be allowed to be present.
[Translation]
The next motion is about transcripts of in camera meetings.
That one copy of the transcript of each in camera meeting be kept in the committee clerk’s office for consultation by members of the committee or by their staff; and that the analysts assigned to the committee also have access to the in camera transcripts.
[English]
Thank you.
All those in favour of the motion?
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: That completes our adoption of routine motions.
Go ahead, Mr. Seeback.
On camera meetings:
That any motion to go in camera be debatable and amendable; and that the committee may only meet in camera for the following purposes: (a) to consider a draft report; (b) to attend briefings concerning national security; (c) to consider lists of witnesses; and (d) for any other reason with the unanimous consent of the committee; and, that all votes taken in camera with exception of votes regarding the consideration of draft reports be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings including how each member voted when the recorded votes are requested.
I see no comments. All those in favour of the motion? All those opposed?
Do we have a tie? We're going to have to take a recorded vote. The clerk will proceed.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)
The Chair: The motion passes.
[Technical difficulty—Editor]
[Translation]
[English]
Thank you. We will look into that. One second, please.
I'll suspend for two minutes to make sure we look at the microphone.
I call the meeting back to order.
I hope the translation is working now and the issue with the mike has been fixed. Can everyone hear me properly and is the interpretation working for everyone? Okay. That's good.
Before we go to Ms. Kwan, I just have one concern that I would like to share with the committee. I'd like to see the will of the committee with regard to the motion on in camera meetings that was just passed. I will read part of the motion: “That any motion to go in camera should be debatable and amendable”. The Standing Orders consider a motion to go in public or in camera to be a non-debatable motion. This is in standing orders 67(1) and, specifically, 67(2).
As outlined in Bosc and Gagnon, chapter 20, page 1089, it says:
Any member may move a motion to go from sitting in public to sitting in camera (and vice versa). The motion is decided immediately without debate or amendment. In practice, committees often change from one to the other at the suggestion of the Chair, with the implied consent of the members.
Based on this, the motion seems to be out of order. What would be the will of the committee?
Go ahead, Ms. Falk.
Thank you, Chair, and congratulations on your appointment to chair of this committee.
I'm confused because we received this from the clerk's office. Why would the clerk send something that was out of order to be part of the routine motions?
Ms Jenny Kwan: [Inaudible—Editor]
Thanks very much.
It's my understanding that some of the other committees adopted this motion as well.
I was just saying that I'm aware that this motion was adopted by other committees in the previous Parliament, and I believe it was adopted by the health committee as well. It's doable.
Thank you, Ms. Kwan.
The motion was circulated because it was adopted in the last Parliament, but it is out of order in this session. I have consulted the clerk, who mentioned that this motion has not been adopted by any other committee.
— to get clarification, if it was out of order in the last Parliament, how did it get adopted? That doesn't really make sense to me.
Thanks, Madam Chair.
I would like to ask Madam Kwan if she could name the committee where that motion was adopted.
Members, please go through the chair, so I can recognize the members who would like to speak.
Go ahead, Marie-France.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Could we suspend for five or 10 minutes, please, so we can have a caucus conversation regarding this particular decision, as conversations are occurring right now?
I call the meeting back to order.
Based on my discussion with the clerk of the committee, and based on what I read to all of the members, that motion was out of order. If I have the consent of all of the members, I would request that we rescind the vote and go back and have a debate before we proceed.
Can I have unanimous consent to rescind the vote on that?
Ms. Kwan.
I'm sorry, but before we do that, can we get verification on whether or not in the last Parliament, for example, the health committee passed this motion? I've been advised by my colleague that it did.
I'm just curious; if it passed in the last Parliament, why is it out of order in this Parliament?
I will clarify that....
In response to Ms. Kwan's question, the ruling was provided in this Parliament. Yes, Ms. Kwan is right, it was adopted by one of the committees in the last Parliament, but the clerk's ruling in regard to this motion being out of order was not provided until this Parliament.
This motion is out of order. I would request unanimous consent, if we can have it, to rescind the motion.
Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.
[Translation]
[English]
[Translation]
[English]
Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, I will ask the clerk to provide you with the motion.
Do you have the translation now? Okay.
Are there any further comments on this by the members?
Do I have the unanimous consent of the members to rescind the vote? Is everyone in favour?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: Okay. We have consent from all the members to rescind the vote.
I would ask the clerk to please go back to the vote.
Would the members like to debate that motion or go to the vote?
Mr. Dhaliwal.
Mr. Dhaliwal, we have to vote again because we voted and and have now rescinded that vote. That's why we have to vote again.
Ms. Kwan.
Thank you.
I'm still kind of perplexed about how, if it is out of order, in the last Parliament it was adopted by a committee.
Maybe I can get some further clarification on which aspect of the motion is out of order.
Thank you.
Again, the issue is that the Standing Orders consider a motion to go in public or in camera to be a non-debatable motion. That's Standing Order 67(1) and specifically 67(2).
Thank you, Madam Chair.
The component of the motion that was passed that is deemed to be out of order is the part that says “That any motion to sit in camera is debatable and amendable”. Is that the element at issue?
Is the idea to rescind the motion that was passed and then to resubmit the other component of the motion? Is that the intent here?
First of all, we will have to go one by one, so the first step will be to rescind the vote because of the fact that it is out of order and we will vote on it, and then we will proceed.
No, I'm just asking to see what the intent here is, which will inform my decision on whether or not I will support rescinding the motion, because it requires a unanimous vote.
My question then to the committee members is whether the intent is to move the motion without that component that says the motion to sit in camera is debatable and amendable.
I thought we had unanimous consent to move forward. We got it in the first round when you called it, so, as a point of order, we did get unanimous consent.
Yes, thank you, Ms. Kayabaga.
I think she is right, and we were going into the vote, so the clerk provided clarification and she's going to conduct the vote.
When I asked for unanimous consent no one said no to it. No one said no to that, and I asked the clerk to conduct the vote, so I would request the clerk to please conduct the vote.
I call the meeting to order. Can I have the attention of all the members?
Before the meeting was suspended the clerk was going to call a vote on rescinding the motion. That vote started, so I will ask the clerk to please continue with the vote to rescind the previous vote.
Madam Clerk, you have the floor. You can take the vote.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)
The Chair: Thank you. That vote is cancelled because of the fact that it was out of order.
Is there any discussion? The floor is open.
Ms. Kwan.
All right, I will move the motion without that part. It will read:
That the committee may meet in camera only for the following purposes: (a) to consider a draft report; (b) to attend briefings concerning national security; (c) to consider lists of witnesses; (d) for any other reason, with the unanimous consent of the committee; that all votes taken in camera, with the exception of votes regarding the consideration of draft reports, be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings, including how each member voted when recorded votes are—
[Translation]
On a point of order, Madam Chair. What we are doing is very important. Since I am listening to the interpretation, would it be possible to repeat the wording of the motion slowly to enable me to vote on the right texts?
Thank you very much.
[English]
Before we go to Ms. Kwan, I'd request all the members to please speak through the chair and not directly to other members.
Ms. Kwan.
Madam Chair, I will read it again:
That the committee may meet in camera only for the following purposes: (a) to consider a draft report; (b) to attend briefings concerning national security; (c) to consider lists of witnesses; (d) for any other reason, with the unanimous consent of the committee; that all votes taken in camera, with the exception of votes regarding the consideration of draft reports, be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings, including how each member voted when recorded votes are requested.
Before we go into debate, I just want to clarify one thing in regard to this motion that has been proposed by Ms. Kwan. With regard to the part that reads, “that all votes taken in camera, with the exception of votes regarding the consideration of draft reports, be recorded in the Minutes of Proceedings, including how each member voted when recorded votes are requested”, this will go, but because of the fact that it is in camera, no one can talk about any of these votes. They will be in camera, so no one can talk about these votes.
The floor is open if any members want to debate on that.
Seeing no debate, we can ask the clerk to please take the vote on the motion presented by Ms. Kwan.
(Motion negatived: nays 5; yeas 2)
The Chair: Can I have the attention of the members? We have passed all of the routine motions. I have discussed with the clerk....
Ms. Kwan.
We're off to a swift start here. Excellent.
I thought that on Thursday, if I may propose, that we try to get together in the subcommittee so that we can map out a work plan for the new year. It is my hope that we would be able to schedule a subcommittee meeting on Thursday in the same time slot—because I think we're all here—so that we can get that under way.
Thank you, Ms. Kwan.
I have discussed it with the clerk. It will be possible to call the meeting of the subcommittee on Thursday.
Madam Clerk, will it be at the same time, 11 o'clock? Yes.
The notice will be sent. In that, we can go through what we want to take on in our committee after the winter break.
Yes, Ms. Kwan.
Thank you.
To assist in that work of the subcommittee, I would encourage committee members to send their motions to the clerk in both languages so that we can have all of that in front of us on Thursday.
In addition, if would ask members to also send them to our P9s for the designated Liberal lead at the subcommittee and the Conservative lead as well. If we could do that, I think we can expedite the process for our meeting on Thursday.
Based on the discussion with the clerk, if the members want to send some notices to be brought and discussed, they can send them through email in both official languages. We will take them up on our subcommittee.
Is there any other business?
Seeing none, is it the will of the committee to adjourn the meeting?
An hon. member: Agreed.
The Chair: The meeting is adjourned.
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